NAME OF INTERVIEWER: MONTANA MONARDES NAME OF INTERVIEWEE: JULIO CERÓN NAME OF TRANSLATOR: EMMANUEL CERÓN COUNTRY OF ORIGIN: EL SALVADOR DATE & LOCATION: MARCH, 22, 2017, UNIVERSITY VIEW CONFERENCE ROOM INTERVIEWEE CURRENT ADDRESS: SILVER SPRING, MD KEYWORDS: EL SALVADOR, SPANISH, CIVIL WAR, GREEN CARD, CITIZENSHIP, COMMUNICATION

Note: The interviewee is more comfortable speaking Spanish which is why his son, Manny, was present during the interview to translate anything difficult to understand to either party. All Spanish dialog and phrases are marked with italics. MONTANA: Can you tell me about growing up in El Salvador? JULIO: Yeah uh well you see… I um… how can we start here? You see it's like, like a, like a, its normal like any young person in any country. MONTANA: Did you have siblings? JULIO: I'm sorry? MONTANA: Did you have any siblings? MANNY: Hermanos, hermanas JULIO: ¿Si tengo hermanos? JULIO: Yeah, yeah, yeah, my family is a all together we are 11, 11 members. MONTANA: Mhmm JULIO: That’s ah 8 girls and 3 boys. And we grow up or some someone then would they just go from the town where we born to the capitol city and same place as me you know at the age… at the 17 years age, I left my place where I born. Go to the capitol city MONTANA: Mhmm JULIO: Try to take high school and uhh then I finish my high school or the equivalent to high school which we call bachillerato and then uhh my… I have a brother here an older brother, a half brother just my father's son. MONTANA: Mhmm

JULIO: He's ah older than me he's 70 years old now. But he told me then if I, if I interested in to.. to… came to united states that he can give me you know some help and I say yes why not. You know and that's… and that’s… and that's a time in those days was the civil war in my country. MONTANA: Mhmm JULIO: And so was a very dangerous situation there for young people cause ah you know either military or guerilla you know they recruit, they used to recruit to young people to find… to find? MANNY: Fight. JULIO: Fight, yeah and so nobody want you know nobody, I would say nobody with their…. (laughs) MANNY: Right mind JULIO: Right mind, yeah, right mind want, carry eh you know ah weapons to kill each other MONTANA: Yeah JULIO: That’s really to me to me its crazy. MONTANA: Mhmm JULIO: But uh that’s why it’s a little or a lot dangerous, frustration for young people. And uh when my brother told me that if I enter to travel to United States I say I'm happy you know with that. And uh so when I uh be 22 years old I came… I came? MANNY: Mhmm JULIO: To this country so that’s been uh 30 year, 30 something years ago. And yeah that’s uh basically if there is an answer that can be to your question yeah MONTANA: So uh you, you said you came when you were 22 . JULIO: Yeah. MONTANA: At what sort of point in your life were you at when you were living in your country when you decide to leave? What sort of things were you doing umm and yeah. JULIO: What uh what your question was? MANNY: Um que estabas hacienda cuando tienas 22 años JULIO: Well yes when I, like I said when I finished my high school or the equivalent to high school I uhhh… normally I during… I been in the school. I just keep it you know let's say school starting and when I finished the high school I tried to, to get the job. I been, I started job where they say that I'm uhh like a… accounting assistant or something. MONTANA: Mhmm

JULIO: Uhhh so I used work for ahhh for an office there a small company, a company as an accounting assistant. But then I been for I been there for about two years after I finish my high school with the idea, with the idea of starting the university but really I never, I never, I never started. It's not easy you know in our country in your country it's not easy go to a better level MONTANA: Mhmm JULIO: Like in this case university. Something, to be there you have t really have ah to have to… you really have to do something and focus on what you want see and what you like for your future. And if young, if young people don’t focus on what you want it’s a very hard to start it or even to keep going to finish something but uhh yeah and uh like I said we almost maybe two years to work for this company or this company and then the opportunity to.. to… to come here MONTANA: Mhmm JULIO: Yeah, so really don’t do much. I don’t know how much of a story yo know… MONTANA: Yeah JULIO: (laughs) really but uh yeah. Then uhhh… yeah. MONTANA: AnJULIO: That's basically MONTANA: And I know you uhhh you talk a little bit about the um civil war and I had done some research on that. Ummm So how did that, how did that effect uhh your life and the people's lives around you in that area um with what was going on. JULIO: How the effect uh? MANNY: Como le afecto en la vida, la guerra civil, como te afecto a ti a las personas al rededor JULIO: Well um, you see (deep exhale). Wars in generally, wars they're… they're not they don’t do with I mean… always, always it’s a…. it’s a…… it’s a….. better results you know, you know uhhh there is hungry you know because they'll kill, they kill people kill each other uhhh they destroy you know. I remember when um the-the-the people, the people who are against the military they uh try to destroy anything you know. Ahh bridges they-they put bombs to the bridges to in order to you know uhhh MONTANA: Mhmm JULIO: They destroy… thing like uh tall como y se como y se ehh torres de un alumbrado eléctrico MANNY: Ummm electric like telephone poles I mean JULIO: yeah unas tremendas torres adonde halan tienen los cables que transportar de un sitio para otro MANNY: It's just an electric wall, electric cables, the walls. JULIO: Uuhh-

MANNY: No, no la palabra no se la palabra (laughs) JULIO: But-but torres. Torres? MANNY: Um towers, oh electric, power towers. JULIO: Power tower yeah. They usually destroy those things you know. The focus of them is (laughs) I think try to-to… to el enfoque de ellos, el enfoque de esta gente es de destruir los poco que hay y decir a los rico que n están contentos con su su su… MANNY: So destroy the little that there is JULIO: Ah? MANNY: Destroy the little that there is. JULIO: Yeah uh lo destruyendo lo-lo pequeño lo poco que tienen MANNY: Yeah. JULIO: Mhmm. Yeah Destroy, destroy uh, you know people want let somebody in this kind the rich people then happy with there with the system and that’s basically it. And of course you know if you don’t have if you don’t have… if you don’t… if you don’t have y si tu no tienes abundancia MANNY: Ummm como paciencia? JULIO: no, abundancia. Si no tienes abundancia MANNY: Oh Abundance JULIO: Abundance of something and the little that you have they-they-they they destroy so then people are you know in really poor, poor situation. So all those things, all those things effect to, to anybody MONTANA: Mhmm JULIO: You know when you don’t have food with you in your table when you don’t have a good place to-to sleep and uhhh it’s a it’s a it’s a it’s a always it’s a way to effect I mean people can be effected with you know uhhhh… with con la pobreza with the poor MANNY: Poverty. JULIO: Poverty-poverty yeah. Uhhh Yeah, so uhh plus, plus of course you probably you are you don’t belong you don’t belong to any body anybody but uh you still are you don’t feel like a free, you know, you don’t feel free you probably go out from home to do the normal activities and you don’t know you never know when, when ahhh they-they-they you know they-they uh the-the enemies, the enemies attack each other and the civil people they can be effected MONTANA: Yeah.

JULIO: You know with, and, its bad situation for, for everybody. For, I would say for basically for-for the for the people with um they are nothing involved because whoever are involved they respect each other. When-when and where they going chook [attack sound effect] attack andMONTANA: Yeah. JULIO: You know, but yeah so it’s a bad situation really. MONTANA: So what kind of ideas did you have of America before you decided to come here? JULIO: What kind of idea? MANNY: Que ideas tenias de como, de como tu creias que ira hacer los Estado Unidos JULIO: Como creiya? MANNY: Que era tu idea de como ira a ser los Estados Unidos JULIO: Well you see um… very, very poor, let's say because, because ah I would say umm… well we probably we probably think because… we probably think or everybody think let's say that way, this way a lot of come from another countries and united states it’s a home for-for the whole world I would say. So I always say umm… we think in, we think in our mind we-we have in own mind, in our mind that-that united states is a is the best place in the world and we and you… and of course… I mean that’s-that’s probably people can think right and that’s why lots of people who don’t-don’t have the opportunity to travel to-to…to take an airplane with a visa and-and you know the or the a pass [mumbling] I mean in the legal way they uhh or they, not they, we, because I did that, we have to…. Walk, we have to walk and maybe….. if-if I try to maybe, maybe tell him in Spanish… MONTANA: Mhmm JULIO: La idea de viajar para mucha gente par los Estados Unidos tiene una idea correcta, ehh, que es excelente de tal forma y aunque una no sabe en realidad pero una se arrezagar la vida pasando por desiertos otros paso por rio bravo, otros pasan por diferente formas, gente pasan tiempos, meses, creyendo que saben de como va ser los estados Unidos pero ellos pretende que ellos llegan a un mejor sitio MANNY: Mhmm. Ok is it fine if I translate it for him first? MONTANA: Yeah! If there are certain things that are easier then that’s fine. MANNY: Ok. MONTANA: Just as long as it's not like the whole thing. MANNY: Yeah [laughs] that’s fine. Ok and he's do you want me to-he's you can go on to the next question. MONTANA: Oh, can you translate it for me now just so I can like have that information moving forward

MANNY: Oh like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he was basically saying that like a lot of people they don’t have a clear idea… they have a clear idea of what it's going to be but they don’t really realize what's gonna happen um and all the like landmarks, all the obstacles, um the deserts like they have to go by land so they don’t really put that in their minds and just look at what's gonna happen, what's gonna come from it. Umm so that’s what, that’s what he-he like visu- he knew it was gonna be like a different place but I guess he didn’t really like put it together MONTANA: Mhmm MANNY: And then that’s what it was gonna be like. JULIO: And-and of course, and of course uhh I mean United Stated of course is a better place it’s a more safety, that’s important , you know, so that’s very important being in safe-safe-safety a more safety. Safety or safe? MANNY: Excepting? JULIO: No, safety. Una seguro. MANNY: Oh, secure… or safe. JULIO: It’s a, United States I think is a safe pl- country MANNY: Yes, yeah. JULIO: And I mean at least I know there is problems still there is a lot of problems everywhere but uh its much better or-or-or less I would say much less than other countries because uh… and then-then like I said uh… like I say, I-I you see… some, but of course but uh at that’s point we don’t know, we don’t expect things you know. Our goal-our goal is show up to United State and then even-even with the that'sthat's it does not matter what the-what the process, how hard the process will be but that’s our-our focus right. MONTANA: Mhmm JULIO: Show up, uh, Show up United States with you know uh, make sure that, that uh… ¿como se dice la gente de immigration? MANNY: Immigration like yeah. Se puede decir inmigración. JULIO: Yeah, pero inmigración las agentes de inmigración. MANNY: What is the immigration? JULIO: Immigration agent? MONTANA: Uh the agency it's ICE, immigration… MANNY: ICE. JULIO: Yeah, yeah. Yeah make sure that the people who work…

MANNY: ICE. JULIO: ICE? MANNY: Uh huh, work with ICE. JULIO: Uhh don’t-don't-don’t-don't MANNY: Deport. JULIO: Don't de- Don’t uh… catch you, you know. MONTANA: Yeah. JULIO: Don’t say [pretending to be ICE agent] "Ahhh I gotted you I-I take you here. I gon-" you know MONTANA: [laughs] JULIO: Big problem. I mean make sure a-as long we don’t get that, at that point, we happy. And then of course we are in United State, we show up here, we need to get the job. We need to speak English. I mean all those things you know. For any immigrant that-that-that all those things it still… it still is a, is a, ehh it's un problema. It-it-it's a problem. Umm… yeah we don’t get, sometimes we uh… we even don't-don''t pay you know good we don’t pay good you know good enough money. Oh-oh have to be, come to be better than other countries but sometimes they even they take advantage you know, because people don’t have the-the papers, they want pay to-to-to employers you know whatever they want anything like that. So at the end its-it's hard, it's very hard, it's hard to… to… you know, I mean in order to-to-to get the establish, establish? MANNY: Mhm JULIO: It ver- people have to, it's a process, and sometimes hard process. And… yeah, so… but uh, but still after that you get the job. You get the… a family. At the end you thinking that United States your home. MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: After you of course get the, legal you know, uh, yeah so we don’t want, we don’t want go back our country because everyday it's… it's ¿como se dice, mas fuerte? MANNY: Everyday is harder. JULIO: Yeah per todo el día, cada día se pone mas fuerte, mas pesado, mas difícil la situación MANNY: Yeah, everyday it becomes more difficult than the day before. JULIO: Yeah exactly, yeah… exactly. So… yeah. MONTANA: Ok. So like were there any um maybe pictures you had seen or stories that you had heard about the United States that were different than uhh… you expected when you got here?

JULIO: Que-que-que? MANNY: Habías escuchado como historias o visto fotos antes de llegar y cuando llegaste era diferente de lo que vistes o escuchaste JULIO: Uhh yeah. Well you see pictures… every day, every day any pictures is a nice. MONTANA: Mhmm JULIO: Right? MONTANA: Yeah. JULIO: You know really any picture is a nice, uh but that’s uh… the real thing is you know you can see a picture and-and-and you can see, how you can say "oh so beautiful that picture…" [gestures to abstract painting on the wall] I really don’t [laughs] MANNY: [laughs] JULIO: Don't understand that picture but… but uh you can say, you can take a picture or-or-or-or a house. Of an? Of? MANNY: Of a house. JULIO: Of a house, and you can see in the pictures "wow it’s a beautiful nice, it’s a nice house." But then you come to the real, you come to see inside and there are cucarachas. MONTANA & MANNY: [Laughs] JULIO: You know and-and-and everything is maybe paint you see [gestures to peeling paint on walls] all the thing. Of course that’s a, uh yeah but uh in general, picture of the United Stated yeah I remember, I remember my brother… Ricardo. Tio Ricardo. MANNY: Mhm JULIO: My brother he took, he-he, I remember when I was little, I remember he-he take a… he take a-aa… unos disco, una caja así con disco que lo ponemos el disco así y le damos vuelta MANNY: Oh, yeah. A projector, a like projector that like projected the photos that his uncle- or his brother showed him of like the United States. JULIO: Yeah my yeah… and-and no but uh he took us, he took that thing, that place to us just a way to, to let, to let, let know us… so we can see something. Uh-uh-uh from the United States. MONTANA: To get an idea JULIO: Yeah-yeah-yeah exactly and we see, "wow beautiful United States, wow oh my god beautiful" and-and but like I say again, like I say uh, uh take a, see a picture is not the same than the real, you know the real thing

MONTANA: Yeah. JULIO: So yeah, um... MONTANA: So how did um, how did your family and friends in El Salvador feel about you leaving? Were they very supportive or were they sort of sad that you were going? MANNY: ¿Como se sintio tu familia y tus amigos antes de irte a los estados unidos. Te apoyaron, estaban triste que te estaba iyendo? JULIO: Que si se quedaron tristes? MANNY: ¿Como se sintieron ellos de tu viaje? JULIO: Um, tell you what I don’t…um… no I don’t think so [laughs] I mean I don’t think so. I really don’t remember and I don’t think so because ah I remember that when I decided to make the trip. MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: To the United States, I told my father, I told my father I go to United States you know the day I decide to start the trip and he said "oh really" and um… and I remember that he told me… um no I don’t, I don’t remember he told me for how long I go, I go… I come to here. MONTANA: Mhmm JULIO: But just, I just remember that I told him for 2 years. I gon be there for 2 years I told him. I don’t even [laughs] I don’t even don’t know if I-I gon show up or what but uh you know. I-I-I said I gon be there for, I hope so I can stay there for 2 years and then I come back again. And uh but that’s 2 years. That never happened I mean I-I go back to my country after 8 years when I uh, when I get my green card which is the-the-the legal… MANNY: Document. JULIO: Legal, document yeah-yeah. And then uh yeah… so … I don’t know, I don’t think so than people get sad, get sad because people show up here. So, you know decision that anybody can say, maybe-maybe I think if the person that can be sad is your wife or you girl, your girlfriend other than that, nobody cares really [laughs]. MONTANA: So can you tell me a bit about um the actual journey you made from El Salvador to the United States and what kind of obstacles you had to overcome? MANNY: ¿Cuando era el viaje y que hiciste? Yo no se esta historia so… JULIO: So-so-so I'm sorry, look like I don’t understand you but uh you, I understand you the thing is that, I always say I don’t have much, much uh vocabulary you know. MONTANA: Mhmm

JULIO: And that’s why sometimes it's very hard to me understand others not that, not that you don’t speak very well but MANNY: [Laughs] JULIO: But I just try to, to understand but at the same time see I don’t know if I understand the question. That’s why I'm try to, he can, I just, I want him he can translate to me. ¿Cual fue la pregunta? MANNY: ¿Como era el viaje llegando? JULIO: ¿Como fue el…? MANNY: ¿Como llegaste? Que hiciste? JULIO: ¿Cuando llegue? MANNY: Yeah, ¿Como era el viaje llegando de El Salvador hasta acá? JULIO: Oh MANNY: básicamente, ¿como era? ¿como llegaste? JULIO: You see, the experiences during the big… the big uh MANNY: The big journey. JULIO: Journey. MANNY: Yeah JULIO: Uh you see I always say of course that happed 30, 35 years ago 1985 and I think years ago was more easy than now. MONTANA: Yeah. JULIO: I remember then, then uh, for me it was easy, was easy because I remember that I left, I left the… I took a plane from there because I, whoever-whoever help me to-to-to start the process told me that, told me that, he recommend me to go, to apply for a vis- to a Mexican visa. MONTANA: Mhmm JULIO: And in that time, in those days it was very easy to, people, anyone can get a visa from Mexico. And she told me if you get the visa you can, you can, you can uh take an airplane from El Salvador to, to Mexico, legal. MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: And it’s a good advance. It’s a good advance. Uh so I remember the fir- the day that I just a decided to leave, to leave El Salvador was a Tuesday. Tuesday 10th of September 1985. And the same

day, the same day, I remember was the Tuesday 10 and we left by 10:00 also in the morning and we make a, we make a… ¿Como se dice hicimos una parada el distrito federal de México? MANNY: Oh we made, we made a stop in the federal district of Mexico. JULIO: Mhmm and we change the airplane there. And then uh the other, the other airplane that we just take, make another stop in Tijuana. Tijuana is still Mexico but it bordered with United States and California, Santiago, San Juan. And the same day, the same day 10:00 in the morning we left for El Salvador and by 4:00 I think in the afternoon we be in Tijuana. MONTANA: Mhmm JULIO: You see, it's a good, good advance. And we been there I think around 6 or 7 people came together with the same trip with the same people right. But I don’t know for some reason one guy, one or two guys, I don’t know why they-they-they-they have any kind of problems I think in Tijuana in [stuttering] the capitol, Mexico, capitol, Mexico, capitol. Which is DF, they call DF. And we when the rest of the people then we keep going and we been in Tijuana by 5, 5 hours. We wait for those because they say then show up later on, they gon show up. So we wait for those, those couple guys. We sleep, I mean they have a connection you know they started here but they had connection everywhere that’s the way that works I think. So we been, we been, we show up in a home. Of course we sleep there, we eat, we eat like uh you know and uh waiting for the other couple guys and I think by remember, don’t remember exactly but I think next day or two days later after we show up in Tijuana we decided walk sometime after in the night-night-nighttime. We been close to the border, the United States border but we had to walk, make sure nobody see us you know. MONTANA: Yeah. JULIO: And… but I remember the same, the same night that we decided walk, we show up to Santiago, United State now, and we get into another house part of that connection. MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: We sleep there we eat there, and we stay all day long there. Next day by 4:00 in the morning I think, that’s what they did, that’s what had, the-the-the part the… the um how you say? The difficult part let's say to me. Uh because they, they get ready a truck, a truck, big truck, not real, not real big but uh you know a truck and they have read- they have everything ready to do this kind of job you know. MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: So I think we been there by around 10 people already, 10 people, and they decided that everyone, everyone was, they opened, you know they opened part of the truck, the big truck and we go, we go one by one and-and at the end you kno very-very-very MANNY: Cramped. JULIO: Yeah very uh… MANNY: Juntos? Yeah cramped.

JULIO: Bien juntos y sin mucho espacio. No space you know. MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: And then after, after the last person get in the truck we go, you know we go to California from Santiago. Santiago it’s a, it's a, it's a… town or city from California. I don’t know really how much we, we was in that, how long it take the trip to California. MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: But uh we show up there, we get into another house part of the same connection and we uh had the better opportunity, we been in California already so we take a shower we eating and we, we uh, I mean from there we had to, we take a trip to Maryland and my I been, I talk with my brother which is the person who wait for me MONTANA: Yeah. JULIO: He sas to get, to know that I'm already in the United States, and they the people who, who are in this kind of business they want to know that, but they knew they looking, your customer is here, youryour-your-your how you say, your family is here so uhh send the money to-to you know MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: Ah, So-but I remember them because my brother which a, which a was the person who-who-who who decided to help me, he usually work for an Italian restaurant in Bethesda as employer right MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: And uh look like he been very busy and uh he send the money on Saturday I think or on Sunday, on Sunday I guess, and… in other words he took but two days to send the money to them and-and the thing is if they don’t receive the money they don’t let me go. And… and um and-and-and of course the same day I been here in Maryland was one Sunday and uh but remember and-and-and-and something I can say it's very easy I mean years ago it's very easy because, because uh you see I took, really I took from my country from El Salvador I just took 5 days… 5 days and in that’s in between those 5 days waiting for-for you know for some-some… besides its not 5 days not in the desert or something like that MONTANA: Mhm JILIO: But uh you know just waiting for somebody else or waiting for the best time to you know decided, to make the-the-the… the uh… I mean they know they know uh they know the hour and you know so we waiting for maybe get dark or something like that, but the hard part really was, was when they take-putput us in the truck uh… yeah. But uh if I compare any others comments from other people and I say wow so you know in other words 5 days to me I never, I never, I never walk in the desert I never walk… some people thinking about they had to cross a river uhh very situations, dangerous situations for them but nono-no was my case MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: So yeah. Uh yeah that’s my comment considering that.

MONTANA & MANNY: [laughs] MONTANA: UmJULIO: I think Emanuel don’t know about that. MANNY: No. JULIO: You surprised now huh [laughs] MANNY: Yeah a little bit. MONTANA: So how once you got to this country, how were you received by uh other people when you first got here. JULIO: How do I receive? MANNY: ¿Como te recibieron la gente llegando acá? JULIO: Oh. MONTANA: What was it like sort of um… ah what's the word, uh merging into American life? MANNY: ¿Como era ajustandote a la diferente cultura y la vida de los estados unidos? JULIO: ¿Como fue… come fue.. MANNY: ¿Como sentiste cambiando tu cultura básicamente o tratando de… como lo sentiste diferente acá. Con la cultura diferente? JULIO: Ah, well um, tell you, uh… well happy. Happy because at the end, at the end you know eveneven-even when we don’t know what's-what-what gonna happen in the, in the, in the, in the, in the way… on the way. Uh when you know that you are in the place then U.S. may be uh you uh you are Como dice, cuando has deseado venir a sitio que has deseado llegar? MANNY: Uh when you get to the place you desire to go. JULIO: Mhm yeah when you get to the place you desire to go right? MANNY: Mhm JULIO: So you uh you thinking you are in something, you are in something even when you that now beginning the situation because you know one thing is that your parents bring to you and because you are a kid, little kid so everything is you-you-you they don’t expect that you do no work or nothing. MONTANA: Mhm' JULIO: Everything is nice ah. But when you, you know there is responsibility money I money that you have to pay to, pay off wherever they give you fa-fa-facility money, so that's-that's money you have to go to them. In this case my brother, he us he paid by, for me 2,000, $2,000 only it was. And that include

everything even new clothes and everything. But it's money, its money that you need to go back to him you know. So then you have to work of course uhhh that’s the goal anyway. MONTANA: Uh huh JULIO: I mean I still don’t under-well that’s another story but I still [laughs] I still don’t understand whyLoud car screech outside JULIO: A lot of people [pause to notice screech] …what is that? EVERYONE: [laughs] JULIO: I still don’t understand… I still can't believe a lot of people who has very difficult problem to get here MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: They're on drugs, they are an alcoholic, they are in the road and-and that’s sad, that’s a sad, something's sad, make me sad to me because… because ah if we, if we get out from our country, try to get to another place it's to see something better. Not-not-not-not worse right? MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: So that, that make me sad you know when I see people like that. So then you if you, you, you have the uh if one of the reasons why, that you left your country to get United States, get the jobs, you uh start to make money and-and-and uh face, face your responsibility MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: That’s nice, that's nice because uh in this part you can, you can feel happy. You probably can help your family that you left in your country… and that make uh well to me, I don’t know if it's to anybody or [laugh] but uh to me make me happy. Make me happy because uh its part of your-your-your dream. MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: Right, yeah. So then uh, uh… of course you come to know of course then your question I try to figure out I'm probably sometimes talk too much [laughs] MONTANA & MANNY: [laughs] JULIO: But ah, but ah according to your question uh then you come to know than uh… but of course get the job it’s a, it’s a one point, good point. Then you come to know that you get some other difficulties like eh your language, uh… like sometimes you have to it's, you have to ¿como se dice, aguantar frio cuando estas en la parada de buses y todo eso? MANNY: Oh um you have to like withstand the cold while you're like waiting for bus stops.

JULIO: Yeah, yeah all those things are difficult then uh you need to think to be better. Learn how drive you don’t know. Try to save money to get the car and-and-and avoid those situation. And… go to school if, if a, you know then maybe to have better communicate. I'm still have that problem [laughs] after 30 years I'm still have that problem I cannot communicate very well. MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: Uh so I think I've been a little bit slow with that. Because uh, yeah. But it's part of you know it's part of-of-of, think that’s part of the…. MANNY: Adjustment. JULIO: Yeah so thinking what you have to do to be better… its part of how you gon face the life in the United States… mhm MONTANA: So uh were there any things um about American culture that shocked or surprised you that you weren’t expecting? MANNY: ¿Habían cosas de la cultura American que te sorbiendo o te… JULIO: ¿Que si habían cosas? MANNY: Yeah, si habían cosas que no esperabas de la cultura American. JULIO: ¿De la cultura Americana? MANNY: Mhm JULIO: Uhhhh… no. Not really, not really I uh, I uh… I would say you see I-I-I I'm a lucky person because uh… because I always notice something concerning the people, people in the United States MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: Uh… people to me, to me… not everybody, but most of the people are very… ¿Como se dice simpáticos? MANNY: Ummm just polite, and friendly. JULIO: Yeah people you see in place where I come to live at least temporary was I think North Potomac where my brother lives and even when I don’t speak English sometime I go, you know, I walk, maybe go to take a bus or whatever I always see people, maybe… I mean old people lets, maybe walk. You know walk do any kind of exercise and they gentlemen, gentlemen? MANNY: Um politely. JULIO: Oh politely? MANNY: Mhm JULIO: They always say good morning to me.

MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: And that’s nice, you know, like always say, say hello to anybody that’s nice you know. Uh… so it's part of the, it's part of the cul… MANNY: Culture. JULIO: Culture I would say and that, I always say that’s nice MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: And uh yeah. MONTANA: Um so can you tell me uh about the places that you've lived in the United States since coming here and what jobs you've had? MANNY: Hables sobre los lugares adonde has vivido y el trabajo que has hecho. JULIO: Yeah, well in the beginning I like I said I-I-I comeMANNY: Papi, para de estar moviéndote tanto. JULIO: ¿No me muevo? MANNY: Siéntate para atrás y quédate allí. JULIO: Oh MANNY: Ok quédate allí. JULIO: Mhm yeah in the beginning when I show up here for my first time was I think in North Potomac MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: Where my brother lives… and… but I been there for temporary, very for short-short term because he told me there, ok I gon help you, I let you are goin, I wanted you know that United States is for work hard [laughs] MONTANA: uh huh JULIO: He told me that, he told me that before I decided to because, because really United States if you young people [laughs] you know what I'm saying, young people that like works you know. MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: And-and I told me I gon let you know that United States is for hard work people, in other words I don’t wanna see you, I don’t want to take to my home and just stay sleeping every day [laughing] I mean don’t tell me that but I just always understood, I you know I always understood that. And uh, and uh he told me when I gon help you with ah, I mean borrow the money for the trip to get, when you get there I have a home when you can come to my home, you can eat you can have food, you can have you can sleep

there, you gon live there with no problem, you don’t have to pay me uh… and of course that would be probably not for long term but… uh during the, during the you don’t get a place you welcome to home to welcome home. And so I've been there for maybe I would say for… from September to November, about two months maybe, two months I've been there. Then he, he uh he tried to get me a job where he usually work in Bethesda as a, in a restaurant in Italian restaurant, and I been working- well but the first, first job that I started was in construction very, very close from where we lived in north Potomac, um I remember that he took he go with me to apply for, to get the jobs MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: And lucky because second day I think, the second day after I show up here I get the job. Uh they start pay me $7 an hour, and of course that’s, working as a laborer right, uh [exhale] I remember then was very hard to me because uh… I never been working so hard in my country MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: And-and-when I started that job in that construction company they asked me to help them to build that uh… I think they're.. andamios? MANNY: ¿Como se llaman? JULIO: Andamios… scaffolds… MANNY: Scaffolds? JULIO: Scaffolds yeah. MANNY: Mmm JULIO: They-they-they so there is a pieces you know pieces very heavy. To put one another one here you put one and then you put stuffMANNY: Oh pillars… ¿Las primera parte de un edificio? JULIO: Si, no, pero estas cosas son andamios le llaman… andamios… MANNY: ¿Y que? ¿Adonde están? JULIO: En las… cuando pones ladrillo en las partes de afuera. MANNY: Mhm oh so it is scaffolds? JULIO: Scaffolds. La gente se para allí con su material y todo eso. Nosotros tenemos que hacer todo ese tipo de… we usually has laborers put the scaffolds then whatever they put uh to the materials to you know put brick, you know, brick-brick-brick people bricker? MANNY: Bricks? JULIO: Bricks, eh make a… how you say mezcla?

MANNY: Uh mix. JULIO: Huh? MANNY: A mix. JULIO: No se se dice mezcla, mezcla. Cemento con agua MANNY: Cement. Mhm JULIO: Ok [laughs] we-we all those things we-we-went part of the job and uh man you know I remember the first day I been, next day in the morning with, with a fever. I feel my body like uh real bad. MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: With fever and I don’t, I don’t show up to the job next day [laughing] yeah I remember that, and I say "I don’t feel bad, I don’t feel well with fever very doliente" how you say doliente MANNY: Uh pain, achy. JULIO: Yeah and then I stay home. And then my brother, my brother took off that day, look like was his day off. And then when he show up there [laugh] to the basement where I been sleeping he told me, he saw me right, I think he is thinking I supposed, I supposed to be in the job at 6:00 in the morning when he see me there he told me "what happened you don’t, you don’t go to work today?" [laughs] and I say "no!" "What happened?" "Aw man I feel like a fever I don’t feel well really" because the first he told me, the first day that’s, its normal, uh… but, but then when I show up next day MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: In order don’t-don’t lose the job. Well the guy, the-the-the in charge guy from the construction was an old guy, American old guy but he be mad he mad at me [laugh] he-he-he mad "What happened why you don’t show up since yesterday!" That’s at I figure he ask me [laughing] I even don’t understand English, learn English but to me that’s, that’s probably what's you know uh what he-he-he told me. Because nobody-nobody speak Spanish around there, just black people and black, white people and I think it was just me was Hispanic there and nobody else speak you know English, but uh look like he-he was uh very mad. And I just understood I understand that "ok you, you come back ok, you ok you come back, but it does happen next day… you lose the job" [laughs] MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: Like I say that’s, I just imagine, imagine that’s try to tell me. And I try to keep the job but later on when the winter start you know, that was September almost winter, and they close form they close for the weather. MONTANA: Yeah JULIO: So no choice but to get another job. And my brother get me a job in the restaurant he work, he usually work, I been working as busboy I mean help to waitress, clean tables, get water to the customers

and thing like that, and uh but uh really don’t-don’t-don’t-don’t like to work in the restaurant so uh I decided somebody offer me a roofing job, exterior job in construction MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: And I told my brother you know what I gon quit from that job, "oh no what happened you don’tyou don’t like it?" I told him no, I don’t think so that I like to be inside all day long, "oh it's up to you he told me you get, you get another job somewhere?" Well somebody offer me a job so uh I even don’t know, I even don’t know at to do but uh, uh I'm gon try to, I'm gon see if I can get what they do. "Ok he said, ok. It's up to you." So I started in a roof, in a roof. So, so let's say I been help labor, construction labor, then uh in a restaurant as a busboy, and then uh roof, then, I been for very short terms. And then somebody told me that-that-that where they be working, when he was, I guy told me that when he's working they uh looking for painters or helpers and I-I-I decided to-to go to apply for that company for that job, helper, painter helper, so basically that’s uh was the last the job that, I still do that kind of job after years. Of course I been there making $5 an hour, uh later on they uh raise me, raise me? Raise me right? MANNY: Raised. JULIO: Raised, raised, raised me. To $10 per hour, of course after years right. MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: But the most important thing I can get in that job, in that company was they helped me be a permanent resident in the United States. MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: That's the most important, the most valued thing. And in this company, this company uh… this company ask if I have uh legal papers to work and I told, a guy who helped me to take that job talk with the Forman and he say well they don’t have no paper, we used to have three Spanish guy, two guys from Guatemala and myself, and uh he say, the guy who tried to translate with the, and talk with the Forman of this company, uh he told that we don’t have the papers, the legal papers and the only way to get papers is they as a company help us to get you know… and-and-and he say well in that case I gon talk with my boss he say, and according that he say, we gon, well according what he say we probably can help them, me and other two more guys. And finally they, in that’s days, there was the opportunity, a company can help you know people who doesn’t have ahh papers, I mean uh legal papers, documents. They can help us out. Como dice ponser-sponsor? MANNY: Sponsor. JULIO: Is it sponsor. MANNY: Mhm JULIO: Yeah. So uh that’s basically was the big thing because finally we get the green card for permanent resident by this company, painter company …yeah.

[pause] JULIO: I finished for now [laughs] EVERYONE: [Laughs] MONTANA: Thank you. MANNY: He talks a lot don’t worry. MONTANA: Um… JULIO: No, no, no I say I finished I don’t know you have more questions [laughing] MONTANA: So I know there um a large um, Salvadoran population in this area. Um has that sort of made it easier to connect back to your culture given the number of people from your country that are in the Maryland area? MANNY: En DC, en Maryland hay muchas personas Salvadoreños, y el esta preguntando si estando alrededor de tantas personas de tu país te ha ayudado conectar con tu cultura? JULIO: Uhhh, yes. MANNY: Con la iglesia también… JULIO: Yes it's very important to me, um… well you see it's important because um I don’t know basically, basically because, one-one of the, something that I-I, I am Christian I'm a Christian person. MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: And I uh, I feel, I like talk with people from my language. That's because I can, I can talk with them, I can understand them, they-they can understand me. You know when I try to talk about you know the plan of salvation that God has for everybody. MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: Uh, so that’s important to me. Uh... yeah. So, yeah. Mmm you see, sometimes, that’s good point because at the end its your-your, it’s the people that you can communicate well right. MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: And that’s important. But for another hand, in other hand, for another side, sometimes its better maybe, don’t-don’t have people with you, around you, speak the same language MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: Because otherwise you never gon get the language which is English, the uh, the uh, how you say el language que… MANNY: The official language.

JULIO: The official, the official language. MANNY: Mhm JULIO: And that’s why sometimes we have problems with that because if we don’t, if everything is easy so then people don’t effort to see how can understand you know the language MONTANA: Yeah JULIO: The, yeah the official language yeah. But uh always it’s a good to-to-to… I think it’s, yeah it's part of the-the-the cultura MANNY: Culture. JULIO: Yeah part of the culture you know be with a, with a, with a, I mean the language is part of the culture anyway MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: Language, the language part of the culture, and if you are, you are with people with, you can speak a hundred percent, it’s a good point you feel better right. MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: In that place. Yeah. MONTANA: Yeah. Are there things that you um miss about your country now that you’re here? MANNY: ¿Hay cosas que extrañas de el Salvador? JULIO: ¿Que si extrañas? MANNY: Yeah.. ¿que tu extraña de allá? JULIO: Mmm? Cosas maybe not. No maybe no co-no things. I basically, somebody say that it's no better, no better no hay cosa mejor que casa. MANNY: Yeah, there's nothing better than to be home. JULIO: Yeah, yeah. There is a es una filosofía MANNY: It's a famous saying. JULIO: Yeah, and really that’s true. Uh I think, I think, everybody, everybody wish to be in their own home you know. MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: Except, except because uh problems, social problems, uh delinquents, delinquents in our country let's say. And sometimes la probreza the poor-

MANNY: Poverty JULIO: Poverty-po-poverty? MANNY: Poverty JULIO: po-pove MANNY [slowly] poverty. JULIO: Poverty, poverty. And but so you know sometimes I still, I still say, you know we are in the times, we are in the days where, where people can be rich but the pro- the social problems are around them so basically not make sense, be rich, be rich but around you problems MONTANA: Yeah JULIO: Social problems. It's better to me right now, it's better to, to have uh maybe not much to eat, but suficiente paz MANNY: It's better to have not a lot to eat but a lot of peace. JULIO: Mhm, Mhm MONTANA: Yeah JULIO: Yeah that's something we can value. You know algo que tenemos que valorizar nosotros es la paz. MANNY: And something that we have to value is peace. JULIO: Y la paz, en realidad, solamente Dios lo puede dar MANNY: And uh peace like only God can provide. JULIO: That's uh yeah, really, nobody, nobody see's, nobody is secure nowhere but if people have peace in their heart that’s something we can value, we need to value. MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: So, yeah. MONTANA: Uh how does your family growing up compare to the family you've created here in the United States? MANNY: ¿Como se compara la familia en tu país, con la familia que tienes ahora? Nosotros JULIO: ¿Como comparo…? MANNY: ¿Como se compara tu vida y tu familia… tu vida en El Salvador, como se compara con la vida y tu familia acá? Como mami, yo, nosotros…y Oliver.

EVERYONE: [laughs*] *Oliver is the name of their cat JULIO: But you see um, of course um, my family, my family here is my close family right, and you when you get, when you have a family, when you get married, you got your girlfriend your kids, that’s can just come to be your family, tu real family really. Parent-parents, sister, brothers, each one, each one sooner or later we have to split up so at the end your real family come to, come to be right come to be, your kids and your wife and everything. And uh… so, uh… so… Como la diría… in other words you are a kid so you are, so you are… uh mientras que una es un niño, unos esa protegido por su padres, sus hermanos MANNY: While you’re a kid you're protected by your parents JULIO: Your parent, your hermanos mayores quizás. MANNY: Your older brothers and siblings. JULIO: And that’s your family the real family. But then when you grow up you-you-you know then you uh, you uh, you know that you have to choose what to do MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: So then uh, uh… la familia viene quedando un poco aparte son quien dice. MANNY: Your, immediate family begins to separate and become not as like the focus of your life. JULIO: Mhm. So yeah, so uh I think any-everybody-everybody at the end everybody has tiene su momento de verdad, de su momento de que anhelan sentir feliz. At the end anybody has their moment that you are… that your feel… you are… you are MANNY: Happy. JULIO: Happy, and-and-and feel like and you know for sure who is your real family. MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: Like I say when you are a kid, your real family is your father with your parent and your brothers and your sisters, but later on they come to be second, second place they get second place. MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: I hope so, that mine don’t stay with me all the time [laugh] EVERYBODY: [laughs] MANNY: I don’t even live with you now. JULIO: I hope so he don’t teach about, what, about that [laugh]

MONTANA: Uh so what was the process of becoming a citizen like? What sort of things did you have to go through in order to get citizenship status? MANNY: ¿Lo entendiste? ¿Como era el proceso de ser ciudadano? Ese es bien reciente. JULIO: Uh bueno you see, uh, you see, uh 1992, 1992, under Mr. George, George Bush father… MANNY: Senior. JULIO: Was the person. I received for first time permit work. That they, I think that party the uh the Republican-republican Party they uh give the opportunity to, I don’t know if to anybody or to people from El Salvador or and I don’t know why either. But we get the permit for work. MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: Which is something that you know people can be happy when-when-when you get something then you-you are legal, legal at least for, in some, eh… so then um in nineteen seven, no before in 19 I remember in 1987 we talk, like I told you, we, the company who I usually work as a painter they give us papers but that's it's not easy. MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: You know it's like, like everything, everything has a beginning. So in 1987 we visit a lawyer and talk with him and let him know that there is a company who want help us to get permanent resident and of course that’s their job right. MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: We, we uh, we signed a contract with them and whatever it says then-then they gon take our case. And uh that's-that's case or that process took I think around from 70-70-87 to 93? Three? Six years, six year process. To be, to be a permanent resident. Uh…. Then, then we had to renew. Renew? Renewer? Every 10 years MANNY & MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: The permanent resident card. And I think I… with everything really [laughs]. But I-I-I- every, for two decades, for two decades everyMANNY: Mhm decades. JULIO: I renew that, my green card. But then finally I come to know that the same money that I have to pay for-for renew my green card I-I had, it’s the same money I need to pay to be uh… MANNY: Citizen. JULIO: Citizen. So then I say, what happened why I have to renew this thing when-when uh MANNY: The cost is the same.

JULIO: When the cost the same money and still I'm not, I not a citizen still I not a citizen. So then I decided to take, take change. So I, I uh I apply for you know for the uh… citizen. I took uh they give me a book with uh 100, questions. And they say that from the 100, I mean there is a, there is a 100 questions, but 10 of them only they ask, I mean they use 10 question. And with 6, with 6 questions that you answer well, you are, American per-resident I mean uh citizen. So uh basically I come to be American citizen after 22 years I think. MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: After 22 years. And yeah, thanks God now I'm a American citizen and… MANNY: En que ano? JULIO: Last-last in 19, in fif-, in 2015 MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: Come to be American citizen. MONTANA: And how did that feel after you finally got citizenship status? JULIO: How do I feel? MANNY: ¿Como se sentía? JULIO: ¿Como me sentía? MANNY: Yeah JULIO: Que? MANNY: ¡Cuando te convertiste en ciudadano! JULIO: ¿Como me sentía? MANNY: Yeah. JULIO: Well I tell you, you see part, you see I'm very-very I don’t know, I'm ver- my wife say that I'm a very a little bit, I'm very weird [laughs]. Because still she told me "When you gon get, when you gon apply for American citizen?" And I say "uh I don’t care about that, you know I don’t worry about that" [laughs] you know because I told her with the, with the, citizen or just permanent resident I still have to work I told her so why I have to, why I have to be, why I need to make me American citizen when I know that I still have to work. MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: And, and then but uh so at the end you know the most important to be is be legal. I mean have the opportunity to go to my country, see my family, come back again with no problem. And that’s the most important to me.

MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: But uh like I say I just, I just, that’s why it took me time I'm, you see I came to be a residentpermanent resident in 1994 I think yeah in yeah 1994, and, and after 3 years because my wife she's from Puerto Rico and she American citizen and because I, my wife is American citizen so I don’t need to wait much after I get my green card my permanent-permanent green card, 3 years later on I can, I could, I couldn’t, I couldn’t? MANNY: I could. JULIO: I could apply for American citizen. MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: But uh I never, I'm very slow with that MONTANA: [laughs] JULIO: So took me, like I say 20 mo- over 20 years to come to… yeah. Uh so, so but take, take the process to be uh to be legal take process and sometimes and lucky if there is a change or you know opportunity to, to get uh legal. Sometime uh there is many ways, I understand there is many ways. One of them is the way that I came to be legal, by work, by com- by work, by boss, uh work right. MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: Some other can be get married with American citizen but because a lot of people do that look like it's not easy to-to, I mean look like immigration take action with that because they say that, they say a lot of people they do it just with that purpose I mean have to be, have to be um… I mean couple have to be longer together, have kids and you know and-and-and that way they can, they can, they can prove that they are because they love each other MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: But not because business you know what I mean. So that’s why I think ICE they been very hard with that situation and is no more easy to get, to get uh, to get legal in that, in that way. By that way. Uh yeah. MONTANA: I have, one more question [laughs] so how do you picture, now that you’ve been here, how do you picture your future in this country? Um are there more things that you wanna do? Do you plan on living in the same area um maybe after your kids have graduated from school do you think you'll stay in Silver Spring or are there other places you would wanna go? JULIO: Uhhh well I don’t know probably sometime I wish, I wish go to, to a country no necessarily have to be my country because you know too many social problems there but uh I always say that you know, United States really is very expensive. MONTANA: Mhm, yeah.

JULIO: It's very expensive, and-and uh, and uh….. I already 50 something years, I'm older, in other words I'm older, I can, I don’t know if I can buy a house and, and I can, how you say affor-afford-afforMANNY: Afford. JULIO: Afford-afford-afford. So we have to think about all those points, those things, but still I think that the best thing, the best thing, or not maybe the best but one of the things is go back to a cheaper place, I mean no necessarily have to be the best place but you know something that don’t cost you lots of money. So, I don’t know I'm still don’t know what I am going to do but that can be good, one option, go to, to… Spanish country. MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: I-I sometime I-I-I I think I go to Costa Rica. They say that in Costa Rica is a good place to live. And I don’t know maybe? Unless Emmanuel want a buy me a mansion some-somewhere something Potomac or something MONTANA: [laugh] JULIO: [laugh] You see, he get mad, he get sad now. MANNY: What I didn’t say that. JULIO: [laugh] No but you see yeah, like I say its something that I'm very sure about that, that America is very-very-very expensive. MONTANA: Mhm JULIO: Yeah MONTANA: Ok is there anything else that you want to add before we conclude the interview? JULIO: No I think that be… MANNY: I think you talked a lot. EVERYONE: [laugh] JULIO: I think I talked to much, I'm try to talk too much [laugh] MANNY: Um should I just end it? MONTANA: Yeah! Great, thank you.